If you're reading this, you probably found the URL through the YouTube video and don't have a YouTube account. Feel free to respond to the video and others' responses by commenting on this post. Thanks!
So I watched the vid came here and was going to say something but realized I didn't know why. Then I watch it again and am still confused what your goal is. What are you meaning to do with the info your asking for? Is this some sort of project? Either way have you heard about this http://pomoworld.ning.com/ I'd tell you more about myself but I have to figure it out. The discussion interests me and I plan on keeping up with it so when you take another step expect to hear from me.
My scholarly background is in communication, with a special emphasis on the social construction of language. To me, labels are arbitrary. That doesn't mean that anything will do, but to me it means that the label that is applied to me at any given point does not change who (what?) I am. I began feeling my gender identity before I had a word that I felt fit well. But even lacking a label, I began to figure out where I felt comfortable. Even now, the word that I have for myself is something invented personally, and not a well-used or widespread term by any means. (although wouldn't it be fun if it were?) BTW, that term--which you know (disclaimer, I'm a big cheater and know xylophonegender) is xylophone.
The other thing that I believe stemming from the social construction of language is that someone else might use a label for me that I don't personally feel fits, but based on that person's understanding of the label, it might be completely valid.
For example, I personally don't identify as "butch", because in my experience that carries connotations of male/female role dichotomies (butch/femme) and I don't feel that I can categorize myself as being on one side of such a dichotomy. However, someone else who is more familiar/comfortable with a definition of "butch" as writers like S. Bear Bergman use it--being its own gender, and not denoting anything other than the existence of an alternative gender (i.e., not denoting any socio-political, economic, sexual, or relational meaning)--might apply the term to me. And in their understanding of it that might be valid. But if I am asked, "Are you a butch?" I would reply, "No," because in my understanding it's not valid for me.
Clear as mud?
One other thing--regarding the thought of labels and visibility being a double-edged sword. It's a double edge that I am happy to encounter. The liberation and validation that comes with a word that I feel fits me (even if it had to be made up) far outweighs for me the risks inherent with making my alternative gender identity visible. I'd rather live a more difficult life being who I really am than live an easy one trying to fit into other people's molds.
The labels that I use to describe myself change frequently, so I tend to use words that encompass a wide range of identities. I'm particularly a fan of queer.
The problem I've had with using words more specific than that is I end up feeling bound by them. I decided I was bisexual, and then realized that I liked people that fell outside of the gender binary. So then I use panssexual, but who the hell even knows what that means? And why use a million different words to describe all the people who aren't quite the same, instead of one word describing people who recognize that they are all unique individuals and who agree to be accepting of each other.
So, I'd rather be a part of a queer community than a panssexual genderqueer community; it allows me more flexibility.
Fluidity! Ask me again tomorrow, and I'll change my answer.
Wow, what Jordan said down there is just about perfect. I used to say "pansexual genderqueer" but (especially in the tiny conservative town I live in) that tends to just confuse the hell out of people.
I used to identify as straight (sort of). I refused to use the term bisexual, as it suggests that there are only two sexes to be attracted to, and that pisses me off. Then I came out as a lesbian, tentatively, and got my first serious girlfriend. Less than a year later, my partner came out as trans. Now I'm straight again- just kidding. My partner coming out as trans has really made me think about labels a lot- it took me a long time to finally accept myself as a lesbian, and now I don't feel that label fits either. I am in love with a person, who identifies as male, but has a vagina. So now, I've come to accept the term queer. It's the best. It's clear to those who are ignorant of the glbtq community- though they usually assume it means you're gay, they're at least understanding that I do not love in a conventional heterosexual way. And in the community it's pretty understood as a term for someone who just doesn't fall in any category.
Lately I'm just wondering who in the hell cares about all these categories. I am in love with someone. Can't everyone just accept that I am partnered and leave it at that?
Anyway, that's my perspective. I am 25 and I live in a small closeminded town in central Washington state. I'm a lower-middle class community college student with no particular religious affiliation, white, female. There you have it. Anything else?
I can’t find a label that might suit me apart from gender fluid (to which I’ve attached my own meaning and relevance). I on occasion call myself a butch, but this term is really quite a falsely inaccurate description - I do not feel like a masculine woman, for I do not feel like a woman at all. But then to label myself as ftm would also be inaccurate, for I do not feel like a masculine man either. I am simply masculine. My physical sense of gender is male, but internal sense of gender is not, it’s complicated. I don’t know a term that accurately describes this variation, cos it just isn’t as simple as man trapped in woman’s body, or both man and woman or anything like that. Neither is the only option left - yet therein lies the dilemma…for if I am a neither a man or a woman, then what am I? A term must be found to explain it, to bridge that gap of understanding. At the moment I’m having to make do with waving my own little flag around and hoping that I encounter others waving something similar…it hasn’t happened yet. It looks like it could be a long wait, I’d better get coffee…
So basically, I have come to use the term gender fluid to mean that which can’t be captured, free flowing essence - existing on the boundaries of categories, but falling into none; being nothing and everything at the same time. I see my fluidity as an anomaly of transparent essence - appearing to be something by way of reflecting it, and yet it’s own nature is not the same as the thing it reflects (a mirror reflects, but it’s perceptual illusion, the mirror itself being something different). People can look at me and see any number of things, but it’s a hit and miss affair. It’s like I’m always falling short of just that one little step it would take to make me a this or a that. I use labels to make it easier for people to understand what I am on a general basis and the one people find easiest to comprehend is butch lesbian so that‘s the one I give to them. Heavens knows, I wouldn’t want to have to go off into some long description about my gender identity every time somebody asked me the question of what I was. I need a short cut term, one or two words that will embody either the general or specific meaning of what I am. My gender is fluid in that it is formless and nameless, eternally elusive - but that doesn’t stop me from wanting to try and catch it and pin it down. I’m not trying to shed labels, but in pursuit of them. I feel like I’m rummaging through a great sea of labels, finding and discarding, trying them on, contemplating them, getting excited about one or two that make it look like I’m getting closer to finding that perfect description. But then, perhaps there is no perfect description. Perhaps the pursuit of it is in vain. Perhaps umbrella terms are the best - the widest scope of range with which to fit into. I like terms like genderqueer though which are much less rigid than other terms which stick steadfastly to fixed points. Fluid however, remains the term most fitting for me. So until then…
Thanks so much for all that, both of you. Abby, yeah, I echo the wondering about who still cares or not. I can go into all sorts of subtlety about gender, but the old, simple 'tomboy' label seems to be the most intelligible to most of the people in my life, and they can pin that one on me without me ever speaking up. So who really cares? I wish it were someone I could point my finger at, instead of this weird, amorphous "society" or "mainstream" that never really speaks up for itself directly. I react to its pressure, and can name situations where "common wisdom" from the mouths of others has made me uncomfortable. However, that's as close as I expect to ever come.
And to genderfluidity- How eloquent, thank you for your thoughts. I love the imagery of a sea of labels :) And I like thinking of labels as shortcuts referencing back to one item.
I'm an older post-op TS, who loved your video. And I'm very impressed with you personally. Please stay in touch with the online community!
What I am increasingly appreciating is the quantity and quality of the various dialogues going around the world as our wider "transgender" community evolves. Especially among the youth, the brainstorming is just amazing. I truly wish we had had these conversations and theories available when I was a wee youth. The internet, of course, has been such a tremendous boon to our community, facilitating and escalating these dialogues to a level simply unimaginable even 20 years ago. All praise to the Mighty Web!
I note some significant differences among the thoughts of today's transgender youth and those of older generations.
1. They accept their condition as natural and normal, whereas older trans people battled thoughts of being un-natural and completely deviant.
2. As as result of the above, perhaps, they don't seem as ashamed, embarrassed or generally negative about their condition as many older trans persons have.
3. They don't buy as readily into the gender binary, so they don't seem as desperate to get from gender A to gender B; rather, they embrace a variety of in-between, blended genders and/or self-definitions that are not strictly male-female.
These factors, and perhaps others, seem to be a key to their self and peer acceptance. Because they believe they are natural and normal, because they don't show embarrasment, and because they are willing to define themselves as something in-between or a blend of genders that is more rationally-based (than proclaming you are a woman when you are clearly, to the observer, a 6-5" footballer), their spirit radiates positivity rather than negativity, creativity rather than deviancy, mental sharpness rather than cluelessness.
With such brilliant young thinkers and spokespersons, I think the time when the gender rainbow will be generally accepted by society is closer at hand than we may imagine. Who knows, pretty soon all the kids may be calling themselves "transgender". After all, what could be cooler and more rebellious than playing with your gender?
I disagree that "bi" reinforces the gender binary. um yeah if you think of it that way! I feel like it means I like male-bodied and female-bodied people. I don't even believe in "man" and "woman" (see Gender Trouble by Judith Butler) so it can't mean that for me. And I like the term "bi" because I'm not "fluid" and I want to assert that I am interested in PEOPLE and not what organs they have so much. I guess I also find both bodies to be sexually desirable, but I feel like more people would if they allowed that possibility for themselves? I dunno. And I know that my thought about it seems to exclude intersexed people, but if we're talking about two types of bodies/genitals and I'm saying that I can love both, then I should technically be able to love someone who has a combination of both, right? Ok that is my rant about identifying as bi. I'm NOT "queer" (weird), I'm not "pan" (wtf?), and I'm not "fluid" (which sounds wishy-washy or confused to me). I'm very clear about my preferences: I am attracted to male and female-bodied people, and there are MANY persons who are within those bodies. I don't want to label myself with an ambiguous label; I want people to know that I'm attracted to both male and female-bodied people. I'm tired of people trying to disempower me or tell me that my word is harmful to their notions of gender, when I completely believe that gender is an individual thing that is unrelated to body type.
"fluid" also sounds like it changes to me, and I would like to assert that my sexual preference is permanent. Not that I have a problem with anyone identifying as fluid at all; I just want to assert my right to not associate with that term and still be recognized as NOT believing in the gender binary.
10 comments:
So I watched the vid came here and was going to say something but realized I didn't know why. Then I watch it again and am still confused what your goal is. What are you meaning to do with the info your asking for? Is this some sort of project? Either way have you heard about this http://pomoworld.ning.com/ I'd tell you more about myself but I have to figure it out. The discussion interests me and I plan on keeping up with it so when you take another step expect to hear from me.
My scholarly background is in communication, with a special emphasis on the social construction of language. To me, labels are arbitrary. That doesn't mean that anything will do, but to me it means that the label that is applied to me at any given point does not change who (what?) I am. I began feeling my gender identity before I had a word that I felt fit well. But even lacking a label, I began to figure out where I felt comfortable. Even now, the word that I have for myself is something invented personally, and not a well-used or widespread term by any means. (although wouldn't it be fun if it were?) BTW, that term--which you know (disclaimer, I'm a big cheater and know xylophonegender) is xylophone.
The other thing that I believe stemming from the social construction of language is that someone else might use a label for me that I don't personally feel fits, but based on that person's understanding of the label, it might be completely valid.
For example, I personally don't identify as "butch", because in my experience that carries connotations of male/female role dichotomies (butch/femme) and I don't feel that I can categorize myself as being on one side of such a dichotomy. However, someone else who is more familiar/comfortable with a definition of "butch" as writers like S. Bear Bergman use it--being its own gender, and not denoting anything other than the existence of an alternative gender (i.e., not denoting any socio-political, economic, sexual, or relational meaning)--might apply the term to me. And in their understanding of it that might be valid. But if I am asked, "Are you a butch?" I would reply, "No," because in my understanding it's not valid for me.
Clear as mud?
One other thing--regarding the thought of labels and visibility being a double-edged sword. It's a double edge that I am happy to encounter. The liberation and validation that comes with a word that I feel fits me (even if it had to be made up) far outweighs for me the risks inherent with making my alternative gender identity visible. I'd rather live a more difficult life being who I really am than live an easy one trying to fit into other people's molds.
The labels that I use to describe myself change frequently, so I tend to use words that encompass a wide range of identities. I'm particularly a fan of queer.
The problem I've had with using words more specific than that is I end up feeling bound by them. I decided I was bisexual, and then realized that I liked people that fell outside of the gender binary. So then I use panssexual, but who the hell even knows what that means? And why use a million different words to describe all the people who aren't quite the same, instead of one word describing people who recognize that they are all unique individuals and who agree to be accepting of each other.
So, I'd rather be a part of a queer community than a panssexual genderqueer community; it allows me more flexibility.
Fluidity! Ask me again tomorrow, and I'll change my answer.
-Jordan
follow up from a posting on the video about the pronoun "yo"
http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/grammar-yo-pronoun.aspx
Wow, what Jordan said down there is just about perfect. I used to say "pansexual genderqueer" but (especially in the tiny conservative town I live in) that tends to just confuse the hell out of people.
I used to identify as straight (sort of). I refused to use the term bisexual, as it suggests that there are only two sexes to be attracted to, and that pisses me off. Then I came out as a lesbian, tentatively, and got my first serious girlfriend. Less than a year later, my partner came out as trans. Now I'm straight again- just kidding. My partner coming out as trans has really made me think about labels a lot- it took me a long time to finally accept myself as a lesbian, and now I don't feel that label fits either. I am in love with a person, who identifies as male, but has a vagina. So now, I've come to accept the term queer. It's the best. It's clear to those who are ignorant of the glbtq community- though they usually assume it means you're gay, they're at least understanding that I do not love in a conventional heterosexual way. And in the community it's pretty understood as a term for someone who just doesn't fall in any category.
Lately I'm just wondering who in the hell cares about all these categories. I am in love with someone. Can't everyone just accept that I am partnered and leave it at that?
Anyway, that's my perspective. I am 25 and I live in a small closeminded town in central Washington state. I'm a lower-middle class community college student with no particular religious affiliation, white, female. There you have it. Anything else?
.Abby.
after.all.the.folderol@hotmail.com
I can’t find a label that might suit me apart from gender fluid (to which I’ve attached my own meaning and relevance). I on occasion call myself a butch, but this term is really quite a falsely inaccurate description - I do not feel like a masculine woman, for I do not feel like a woman at all. But then to label myself as ftm would also be inaccurate, for I do not feel like a masculine man either. I am simply masculine. My physical sense of gender is male, but internal sense of gender is not, it’s complicated. I don’t know a term that accurately describes this variation, cos it just isn’t as simple as man trapped in woman’s body, or both man and woman or anything like that. Neither is the only option left - yet therein lies the dilemma…for if I am a neither a man or a woman, then what am I? A term must be found to explain it, to bridge that gap of understanding. At the moment I’m having to make do with waving my own little flag around and hoping that I encounter others waving something similar…it hasn’t happened yet. It looks like it could be a long wait, I’d better get coffee…
So basically, I have come to use the term gender fluid to mean that which can’t be captured, free flowing essence - existing on the boundaries of categories, but falling into none; being nothing and everything at the same time. I see my fluidity as an anomaly of transparent essence - appearing to be something by way of reflecting it, and yet it’s own nature is not the same as the thing it reflects (a mirror reflects, but it’s perceptual illusion, the mirror itself being something different). People can look at me and see any number of things, but it’s a hit and miss affair. It’s like I’m always falling short of just that one little step it would take to make me a this or a that.
I use labels to make it easier for people to understand what I am on a general basis and the one people find easiest to comprehend is butch lesbian so that‘s the one I give to them. Heavens knows, I wouldn’t want to have to go off into some long description about my gender identity every time somebody asked me the question of what I was. I need a short cut term, one or two words that will embody either the general or specific meaning of what I am.
My gender is fluid in that it is formless and nameless, eternally elusive - but that doesn’t stop me from wanting to try and catch it and pin it down. I’m not trying to shed labels, but in pursuit of them. I feel like I’m rummaging through a great sea of labels, finding and discarding, trying them on, contemplating them, getting excited about one or two that make it look like I’m getting closer to finding that perfect description. But then, perhaps there is no perfect description. Perhaps the pursuit of it is in vain. Perhaps umbrella terms are the best - the widest scope of range with which to fit into. I like terms like genderqueer though which are much less rigid than other terms which stick steadfastly to fixed points. Fluid however, remains the term most fitting for me. So until then…
Thanks so much for all that, both of you. Abby, yeah, I echo the wondering about who still cares or not. I can go into all sorts of subtlety about gender, but the old, simple 'tomboy' label seems to be the most intelligible to most of the people in my life, and they can pin that one on me without me ever speaking up. So who really cares? I wish it were someone I could point my finger at, instead of this weird, amorphous "society" or "mainstream" that never really speaks up for itself directly. I react to its pressure, and can name situations where "common wisdom" from the mouths of others has made me uncomfortable. However, that's as close as I expect to ever come.
And to genderfluidity- How eloquent, thank you for your thoughts. I love the imagery of a sea of labels :) And I like thinking of labels as shortcuts referencing back to one item.
I'm an older post-op TS, who loved your video. And I'm very impressed with you personally. Please stay in touch with the online community!
What I am increasingly appreciating is the quantity and quality of the various dialogues going around the world as our wider "transgender" community evolves. Especially among the youth, the brainstorming is just amazing. I truly wish we had had these conversations and theories available when I was a wee youth. The internet, of course, has been such a tremendous boon to our community, facilitating and escalating these dialogues to a level simply unimaginable even 20 years ago. All praise to the Mighty Web!
I note some significant differences among the thoughts of today's transgender youth and those of older generations.
1. They accept their condition as natural and normal, whereas older trans people battled thoughts of being un-natural and completely deviant.
2. As as result of the above, perhaps, they don't seem as ashamed, embarrassed or generally negative about their condition as many older trans persons have.
3. They don't buy as readily into the gender binary, so they don't seem as desperate to get from gender A to gender B; rather, they embrace a variety of in-between, blended genders and/or self-definitions that are not strictly male-female.
These factors, and perhaps others, seem to be a key to their self and peer acceptance. Because they believe they are natural and normal, because they don't show embarrasment, and because they are willing to define themselves as something in-between or a blend of genders that is more rationally-based (than proclaming you are a woman when you are clearly, to the observer, a 6-5" footballer), their spirit radiates positivity rather than negativity, creativity rather than deviancy, mental sharpness rather than cluelessness.
With such brilliant young thinkers and spokespersons, I think the time when the gender rainbow will be generally accepted by society is closer at hand than we may imagine. Who knows, pretty soon all the kids may be calling themselves "transgender". After all, what could be cooler and more rebellious than playing with your gender?
I disagree that "bi" reinforces the gender binary. um yeah if you think of it that way! I feel like it means I like male-bodied and female-bodied people. I don't even believe in "man" and "woman" (see Gender Trouble by Judith Butler) so it can't mean that for me. And I like the term "bi" because I'm not "fluid" and I want to assert that I am interested in PEOPLE and not what organs they have so much. I guess I also find both bodies to be sexually desirable, but I feel like more people would if they allowed that possibility for themselves? I dunno. And I know that my thought about it seems to exclude intersexed people, but if we're talking about two types of bodies/genitals and I'm saying that I can love both, then I should technically be able to love someone who has a combination of both, right? Ok that is my rant about identifying as bi. I'm NOT "queer" (weird), I'm not "pan" (wtf?), and I'm not "fluid" (which sounds wishy-washy or confused to me). I'm very clear about my preferences: I am attracted to male and female-bodied people, and there are MANY persons who are within those bodies. I don't want to label myself with an ambiguous label; I want people to know that I'm attracted to both male and female-bodied people. I'm tired of people trying to disempower me or tell me that my word is harmful to their notions of gender, when I completely believe that gender is an individual thing that is unrelated to body type.
"fluid" also sounds like it changes to me, and I would like to assert that my sexual preference is permanent. Not that I have a problem with anyone identifying as fluid at all; I just want to assert my right to not associate with that term and still be recognized as NOT believing in the gender binary.
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